Romanov's history

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Feb 24, 2005 at 3:57 AM
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I dont know why you all dont let me post a reply in the other threads ,and I wont post in this forum after this so here's some info

The DNA testing of the bones
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/romanped.html

As you all can see theres and with out a clue that Anastasia and Prince Alexei


Any ways heres a some what a story from a book what I found.

PREFACE

On July 16,
a telegram in previously
agreed-upon language
came from Perm
containing the order
to exterminate the Romanovs

Yakov Yurovsky
Chief Executioner


Before an execution, there's supposed to be a trial. Before a trial, there's supposed to be a crime.

What was the crime of 13-year-old Alexis, heir to the Russian throne? What was the crime of Anastasia and his other sisters?

No crime. No trial. No justice. This is their story.


DEATH OF A TSAR

CHAPTER 2 - GIVE US BREAD

He was only ten when the serious trouble started. Serious trouble in the realm, that is. Alexei, the fifth child and only son of Nicholas II ("Tsar of all the Russias") and Alexandra ("the Tsarina" and "the Empress") had his own source of trouble. He had hemophilia.

Known by his nickname, Alexei was a hemophiliac in the days when the disease was fatal. Known by his title, the tsarevitch was a hemophiliac in the days when the monarchy did not reveal its secrets.

How would Russians have reacted if they knew their next Tsar had a serious illness? Turns out, probably a lot better had they known the truth. At least the Russian people would have understood why their Tsar seemed to pay much more attention to the needs of his wealthy family than he paid to the needs of his impoverished people. At least they would not have viewed a father's love as a ruler's indifference.

But by the time average Russians knew Alexei had a serious illness, they were well beyond the point of caring. Their country was at war and people were starving. Many soldiers were fighting in their bare feet. Russia needed to change, but the man at the helm did not hear the cries of his people. Alexei's father was losing his grip on the power he thought was divinely ordained.


DEATH OF A TSAR

CHAPTER 3 - WORLDS APART

By all accounts, Nicholas II was a good man with a tragic past. Born into a loving family, his parents were Alexander III and Empress Marie (formerly Princess Dagmar of Denmark). His grandfather, Tsar Alexander II, had been brutally assassinated and his father died young, at age 42.

Members of the Imperial Family belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church. (Follow this link to an awesome example of a Russian church - Smolny Cathedral in St. Petersburg.) Any outsider (like Princess Dagmar) who married a Romanov had to convert and take a Russian name.

The royal family (like other Russian families) greatly treasured ikons of saints. Rows of ikons (called an ikonostasis ) were venerated by royals and commoners alike. (This link is to a church in the ancient town of Suzdal’ which is located northeast of Moscow.) The difference was the Imperial Family owned ikons; commoners merely saw them in church.

Nicholas never wanted to be Tsar. He wanted to sail around the world as an adventurer. He fell in love with a beautiful princess from Germany, Alexandra of Hess, granddaughter of Queen Victoria. (Follow this link to a photograph of Alexandra and her sisters with their grandma, Queen Victoria.)

Alexandra's mother, (Victoria's daughter Alice), had died young and, at the Queen's directive, Alexandra was raised in England. Later, when Russia was at war with Germany, most Russians forgot Alexandra was half-English and had been raised in England. Most folks just knew her as "that hated German."

When Nicholas asked Alexandra to be his wife (follow this link to their engagement picture), his parents were concerned. Alexandra did not have the kind of dynamic personality a Russian Empress needed.

On the other hand, this couple was in love. Members of European royal families usually married each other to protect their power, but Nicholas was different. No one could have predicted Nicholas - whose family had reigned for more than 300 years - would be the last Tsar of all the Russias.

Who could have realized the opposing worlds of Russia - the world of wealth and privilege and the world of poverty and despair - would collide with such colossal force? Who could have anticipated Nicholas and his family would be crushed in the middle?


DEATH OF A TSAR

CHAPTER 4 - NICHOLAS OUT-OF-TOUCH

How did Nicholas lose the throne to which he and Alexandra had ascended in 1896? How did he get so out of touch with his people? The truth is Nicholas was never in touch with the common people. He never knew what it was like to worry where the next meal was coming from. He never had to.

When his people were in despair, Nicholas ignored their plight and spent time with his family. When his people needed him, the Tsar of all the Russians needed the isolation of the imperial cathedral and Alexander Palace, his church and home in Tsarskoe Selo (the tsar's village).

Although Nicholas was out of touch with the common people and the intelligentsia, he had the support of the aristocracy for most of his reign. But there came a time when even that support eroded. There came a time when a wandering charismatic "monk" named Gregory Efimovich Novyk entered the life of the royal family. Most folks called him "Rasputin." Most historians today think his presence significantly contributed to the downfall of the Tsar.


CHAPTER 5 - ENTER RASPUTIN

Nicholas II made a lot of bad decisions when he was Tsar.

To celebrate his marriage to Alexandra, Nicholas held a customary banquet for his subjects. This traditional wedding feast turned into a stampeding mass of humanity as people - trying to grab morsels of food - crushed each other. Many people died, but Nicholas did not cancel plans to attend a ball in his honor. Failing to even express some sorrow did not sit well with his subjects.

Thinking he needed an ice-free Pacific port, Nicholas fought a war with Japan in 1904. It was a disastrous move that ended in stinging defeat. Russia had to surrender to Japan. This embarrassment did not sit well with the Russian people.

When World War I broke out, Nicholas decided to assume personal command of Russia's military might. He miscalculated his ability as a military leader. He misread the needs of his people. When support for the war eroded because people were starving, he paid no attention. When riots began in St. Petersburg (this link takes you to the War Office Arch during the time of the Romanovs), he was at the front - not in the city where his presence could have made a difference. These mistakes did not sit well with his military generals.

Nicholas II made a lot of bad decisions when he was Tsar. But no decision was worse than allowing Rasputin to become a part of the royal family.


CHAPTER 6
RASPUTIN THE HEALER... RASPUTIN THE DECEIVER

A mystic, Rasputin had strange healing powers. When no one else could help Alexei's bleeding disorder, Rasputin made the bleeding stop. When the family thought Alexei would die, Rasputin helped him get well. Alexandra, obsessed with guilt for passing the dreaded disease to her son, began to depend on Rasputin for everything.

Years later, people realized Rasputin most likely hypnotized the tsarevitch. At the end of the 20th century, doctors know that such a procedure sometimes helps hemophiliacs. But at the beginning of the century, Rasputin's powers seemed almost magical - especially to the Empress.

Because the Imperial Family had kept Alexei's hemophilia a secret, no one knew why Alexandra was so protective of Rasputin. Many people believed Rasputin, a well-known womanizer, was having an affair with the Empress. Despite his slovenly appearance and habits, Rasputin had total access to the royal family. This shocked even the aristocracy. Contemporary newspapers contained caricatures depicting Rasputin's hold over Nicholas and Alexandra. (Scroll down 80% on this link to view the drawing.)

Members of the extended royal family began to believe Rasputin was a de facto member of government. Because Nicholas II often followed the advice of his wife, and because Rasputin was advising Alexandra on affairs of state, the royal family took matters into their own hands. Rasputin had to go.
 
Feb 24, 2005 at 4:15 AM
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CHAPTER 7 - RASPUTIN'S MURDER

Since the Empress had become so dependent on Rasputin, Prince Felix Yussupov and other members of the family believed murder was the only way to get rid of the monk.

On December 16, 1916 Yussupov invited Rasputin to his home in St. Petersburg. Feeding him cyanide-laced wine and cakes, Yussopov thought killing Rasputin would be easy. He was wrong. Rasputin did not eat sweets. Rasputin collapsed from the poison, but did not die.

Later, the alleged details of the murder came out. Yussopov shot Rasputin in the chest, but still he did not die. One of the conspirators shot him twice as Rasputin tried to flee. The shots disabled the monk, but legend has it, he was still alive as the men threw his body into the Neva River. His body was found one week later. Recent revelations from Russian Archives, however, paint a different picture of Rasputin's death. Turns out he wasn't as hard to kill as the story his murderers told at the time of his death.

Rasputin had made an eerie prediction before he died.

If I am killed by common assassins and especially by my brothers the Russian peasants, you, Tsar of Russia, have nothing to fear for your children, they will reign for hundreds of years in Russia.

...if it was your relations who have wrought my death, then no one in your family, that is to say, none of your children or relations will remain alive for two years. They will be killed by the Russian people...

I shall be killed. I am no longer among the living. Pray, pray, be strong, think of your blessed family.

Grigory

Three months after Rasputin's death by the hand of Romanov "relations," Nicholas was deposed as Tsar (March, 1917). Less than two years later, the rest of the "mad monk's" prediction came true as well.


CHAPTER 8 - NICHOLAS LOSES THE THRONE

Prince Felix Yussupov thought killing Rasputin would save the monarchy. Exactly the opposite happened. Most historians believe Yussupov fired the first shots of the Russian Revolution. Order could not be restored in St. Petersburg. (This link takes you to the famous Church of the Resurrection.) The Tsar was convinced the only thing holding the Russian Empire together was the monarchy. He grossly miscalculated what the people wanted.

Had he talked to his subjects, he would have understood the desperation of the poor. Had he visited some of the factories, he would have seen the terrible conditions. But Nicholas was raised in the Imperial Family where monarchs (like Peter the Great) wielded power over, but didn't talk to, their subjects. Unless it was expedient, rulers rarely looked at the living and working conditions of the ruled.

Nicholas was insensitive to vast changes sweeping through Europe. He failed to grasp that his country, the mighty Russian Empire, also needed some measure of change. His inflexibility was a direct link to his loss of the throne. The Russian system was beginning to fail, but Nicholas didn't see it. Once the momentum of radical change began to build, Nicholas was powerless to stop it. He had missed his opportunity to bring about peaceful change in the country his family had ruled for 300 years. By insisting on old ways of the past, he wrote himself out of a place in the future.

Earlier, he had left St. Petersburg for the more tranquil setting of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof. He wanted to avoid the unrest in the city. But soon unrest found its way to him.

Close friends and advisors told Nicholas to abdicate. Realizing he had no other choice, he abdicated for both himself and his ill son. (Note the double-eagle Romanov seal at the top of the abdication letter.) Nicholas directed that his younger brother, the Grand Duke Michael, would become Tsar.

Writing to his brother, Nicholas referred to Michael as the new Tsar. Michael proposed terms by which he would agree to assume power, but his manifesto (follow this link to his proposal) was not accepted by the provisional government. Michael was Tsar for a day. The next day, the monarchy was finished - declared dead by the provisional government. By the summer of 1918, Michael himself was dead - murdered by the Bolsheviks.


CHAPTER 9 - HOUSE ARREST

Once he gave up the throne, Nicholas was no longer Tsar. When he was no longer Tsar, his family was under house arrest in their own home.

Nicholas, as prisoner, was a beleaguered man. The strain of defeat, humiliation and concern for his family began to show on his face.

It wasn't long before the Romanov family was forced to leave their beloved palace at Tsarskoe Selo. They were no longer free to go to Peterhof (the stunning summer palace with dozens of gold fountains and a canal to the sea), where most of the children had been born. Instead, they were exiled: first to Tobolsk; then to Yekaterinburg (also spelled Ekaterinburg), a Siberian town near the Ural Mountains, 850 miles east of Moscow. The Tsar was supposed to stand trial in Moscow. He never got there.

Life for the children in exile was much different from the life they had led as youngsters at the imperial court. Gone were the spacious rooms for rest and leisure. Long gone were the carefree days of being young.

Nicholas no longer wore the trappings of royalty. Alexandra had no further need of her beautiful court dresses and imperial jewels. The family no longer had access to their beloved Russian icons and no longer sent invitations to other royals for costume balls.

The pace of life had slowed for the Romanovs as they settled into the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg. It would be their last home.
 
Feb 24, 2005 at 4:16 AM
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CHAPTER 10 - EXECUTION IN SIBERIA

By the time the Imperial Family moved into the Ipatiev House in 1918, Russia was in full-scale revolution. Vladimir Illych Ulanov, the Bolshevik leader who had changed his last name to Lenin, was in charge of his political party. Lenin and his comrades were referred to as the "Red Army." Military supporters of the Tsar were called the "White Army."

By July of 1918, the White Army was approaching Ekaterinburg. No doubt the Reds had great concern about the Whites' potential for victory. If they were victorious, would they reinstate the Tsar? The Reds were not going to take that risk. Later, it would be easy to believe the final act of terror against the Romanov family came from Lenin himself. ("Lenin's" constitution was ratified on July 10th. Was it just a coincidence that the Tsar and his family were dead within seven days?)

During the late hours of July 16, 1918, Yakov Yurovsky awakened Eugene Botkin, the doctor who had stayed with the royal family. Yurovsky told Botkin:

The Romanov family must be moved from upstairs to downstairs as all is not calm in town.
Unknown to Dr. Botkin, Yurovsky had been appointed chief executioner of the Romanov family.

It took about thirty minutes for the family to dress. They were taken from their bedrooms in the Ipatiev House to a room in the cellar. According to Yurovsky's own account:

A downstairs room was selected that had walls of plastered wood (to prevent ricocheting); all the furniture was removed. The detachment [the execution squad] was at ready in the next room. The Romanovs suspected nothing.

CHAPTER 11 - THE DEATH SCENE

Nicholas (who was only 5' 6") carried his 13-year-old son. Yurovsky personally led the family, Dr. Botkin, and the family's servants to the cellar room. There, without a trial, ("this was prevented by the advancing Whites") Yurovsky told the family they were about to die.

When the detachment came in, the commandant [Yurovsky] told the Romanovs that in light of the fact that their relatives in Europe were continuing their aggression against Soviet Russia, the Ural [local] Executive Committee had decreed that they were to be shot. Nicholas turned his back to the detachment, his face toward his family, then, as though collecting himself, turned to the commandant with the question: "What? What?" The commandant hurriedly repeated his statement and ordered the detachment to get ready.
The Romanov family was trapped. No one was there to help. Their beloved ikons were of no use.

Two of the men picked to kill the family had refused to shoot the girls. (This link takes you to a photo of the girls ten years before they were executed.) Those soldiers were discharged and replaced with men who weren't bothered by such details. The execution squad was ready:

The detachment had been given instructions earlier on whom to shoot and were ordered to aim directly for the heart to avoid a large amount of blood and to finish them off more quickly.
The scene of the murders was photographed later by the White Army. One can hardly imagine the horror that took place in the cramped (13 x 7) room. The Tsar was the first to die:

Nicholas, again turning to the family said nothing more; the others made a few incoherent exclamations; this all lasted a few seconds. Then the shooting started; lasted for two to three minutes. Nicholas was killed on the spot by the commandant himself.
Just before he died, Nicholas apparently tried to shield his son. Alexandra Fedorovna died immediately after that.

But killing Anastasia and her sisters did not go according to Yurovsky's plan.
 
Feb 24, 2005 at 4:21 AM
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CHAPTER 12 - ANGUISH FOR THE GIRLS

According to Yurovsky's eyewitness account, Alexei, three of his sisters, Dr. Botkin and Alexandra's personal maid, Alexandra Demidova, survived the first wave of bullets.

This surprised the commandant because they had aimed for the heart.
It was even more surprising when the second attack still did not kill Anastasia and two of her sisters. Instead, bullets were bouncing all over the room.

It was also surprising that the bullets from the pistols ricocheted off something and jumped about the room like hail. When they tried to finish off one of the girls with bayonets, the bayonet could not pierce the corset. Thanks to all of this, the entire procedure, including "verification" (feeling the pulse, etc.), took around 20 minutes.
Only later, when the men were trying to dispose of the bodies, did anyone realize why it had been so hard to kill Anastasia and her sisters.

When one of the girls was being undressed, it was noticed that the bullets had torn the corset in places, and diamonds could be seen in the holes. The eyes of those all around began burning brightly.
Believing the executioners could also be thieves, Yurovsky dismissed most of the group. Undressing the bodies continued.

Alexandra Fedorovna was wearing a whole pearl belt made of several strands and sewn into cloth. Around each girl's neck, it turned out, was a portrait of Rasputin with the text of his prayer sewn into the amulets. The diamonds were instantly removed. They (things made of diamonds, that is) amounted to about eighteen pounds. These were buried in the cellar of one of the little houses at the Alapaevsk factory; in 1919 they were dug up and brought to Moscow.
Now that the Romanovs and their assistants were dead, the executioners had to work fast to dispose of the bodies. Daylight would soon be upon them. Once again, they had to deviate from Yurovsky's plan.


CHAPTER 13 - WHERE WERE THE BODIES?

After several aborted efforts to dispose of the bodies, Yurovsky and his detachment finally decided to burn them. But burning a human body takes a long time if the temperature is not hot enough. Once again Yurovsky had to make a different plan.

We wanted to burn [Aleksei] and Alexandra Fedorovna, but by mistake the lady-in-waiting [the maid Demidova] was burnt with Aleksei instead. We then immediately buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire again, which completely covered up traces of the digging. Meanwhile, we dug a common grave for the rest. A pit around 6 feet deep and 8 feet square was ready by around 7 o'clock in the morning. [That would have been the morning of the 19th.] We piled the corpses in the pit, poured sulfuric acid onto their faces and generally over their whole bodies to prevent them both from being recognized and from stinking as a result of decomposition (the pit was not deep). Having thrown dirt and brushwood on top, we put down railroad ties and drove over them a few times - no traces of the pit were left. The secret was completely safe; the Whites didn't find this burial place.
The Whites had, in fact, found the temporary grave where the bodies had been hastily left after the murders. However, they never found the spot Yurovsky describes as the permanent grave site:

Koptiaki is 12 miles from Yekaterinburg. [Follow this link to view the location of the Koptiaki forest - look at the top left of the map.] The R.R. crosses mile 6 between Koptiaki and the Upper Isetsk factory to the northwest [of town]. The burial place is 700 feet closer to the Upper Isetsk factory from the point of intersection.
Yurovsky wrote his account in 1920. By that time, the Bolsheviks had changed the name of Ekaterinburg to Sverdlovsk, in honor of the man who masterminded the execution - Yakov Sverdlov - a member of the Bolshevik Central Committee. (In 1962, the American U-2 pilot, Francis Gary Powers, was shot down over Sverdlovsk.)

The bodies remained in their shallow grave, undisturbed, until 1979, when they were found by a Russian mystery writer, Geli Ryabov, and a geophysicist from Ekaterinburg, Dr. Alexander Avdonin. Ryabov and Avdonin waited ten years before they revealed their find.




CHAPTER 14 - WHO REALLY DIED?

In 1977, while he was first secretary of the Sverdlovsk Region, Boris Yeltsin gave an order to destroy the Ipatiev House. It had become a kind of shrine for pilgrims. The only evidence of its existence today is a white cross. All the while, though, no one was really sure what had happened to the Romanov family.

After the Tsar was executed, headlines in the local Ural Worker paper told of his death, but not the deaths of his family members:

EXECUTION OF NICHOLAS, THE BLOODY CROWNED MURDERER SHOT WITHOUT BOURGEOIS FORMALITIES BUT IN ACCORDANCE WITH OUR NEW DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES

Because no one was sure what had happened to the Tsar's children, folks began to speculate whether some of the family members had survived. Most notably, a young woman named Anna Anderson surfaced in Germany in 1920, after surviving a suicide attempt.

Although she did not speak Russian, the young woman seemed to know a great deal about Russian protocol and she looked like the Tsar's youngest daughter, Anastasia. Many people thought she was Anastasia.

Anna Anderson died an old woman, in 1984. She was cremated, which initially made DNA testing virtually impossible. She always claimed she was Anastasia, although recent tests say she was not.

Meanwhile, in Canada, a man called "Heino" died of a blood disorder in 1977. His tombstone says:

His Imperial Highness, Alexei Nicolaievich, Sovereign Heir, Tsarevich, Grand Duke of Russia, August 12, 1904, June 26, 1977
It's interesting to compare pictures of "Heino" to the picture of Alexei. But how could "Heino" claim to be Alexei? Yurovsky said he and his colleagues burned Alexei's body after they killed him. And - even more unlikely - how could a hemophiliac survive the Ipatiev blood bath?
 
Feb 24, 2005 at 4:25 AM
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CHAPTER 15 - ARE THESE ROMANOV BONES?

What do the bones that Ryabov and Avdonin found in 1979 tell us? President Yeltsin ordered their disinterment and the remains have been studied by Russian and American teams. Dr. William R. Maples, head of the American team, discusses his findings in Dead Men Do Tell Tales.

After a great deal of study, including DNA samples from Queen Elizabeth II's husband, Prince Philip, (whose grandmother was Princess Victoria of Hess, Alexandra's sister), Dr. Maples is sure the remains belong to the Romanov family. The DNA evidence is "almost 99 percent" which, coupled with strong skeletal evidence, makes it virtually certain the bones belong to the Romanovs and their staff. Except there are absolutely no skeletal remains for two people: Alexei and Anastasia.

Do the missing remains give further credence to the claims of Anna Anderson and "Heino?" Maybe. Maybe not, according to Dr. Maples. In his final report, he recommends that

...the site around the pit be carefully excavated and searched for the remains of the two bodies Yurovsky said he burned. I believe such a dig might well turn up the calcined remains of Anastasia and Alexei.
(Page 267, Dead Men Do Tell Tales).

While speculation continues about the Tsar's two youngest children, the rest of the family has finally been laid to rest. Even President Yeltsin paid tribute.


CHAPTER 16 - EIGHTY YEARS LATER

The Romanov family was brutally executed without a trial. What crimes could the Tsar's children possibly have committed? None. What crimes had the Tsar been charged with? None. The Empress Alexandra? None. Their staff? None.

The headlines in the local newspapers said it all:

...Shot without bourgeois formalities...
Eighty years later, on the anniversary of their brutal execution, the Russian people laid the Tsar and Tsarina to rest, with most of their children, at the Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg. A Russian Orthodox funeral for the family, with a speech by President Boris Yeltsin, finally ended the atrocities committed against the Romanov family.

What happened during the midnight hours of July 17, 1918, is an example of what occurs when those in power disregard the law. For Yurovsky to even suggest the Tsar's trial was "prevented" because the White Army was advancing leaves no doubt justice was never an issue. Expediency was the only thing at work that night.

The "Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia" claims the Tsar and his family are still at work today. Believing the family has helped to bring about miracles since their execution, the Church has designated each member of the family a saint and a holy royal martyr.

In a final twist of irony, as the body of the murdered Tsar was laid to rest with honors, Russians debated whether the body of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin should be removed from its place of honor in Red Square. Where he will ultimately end up is not known. Turns out, the Tsar's memory (at century's end) was generally held in higher esteem than the memory of Lenin, who likely ordered the royal family's execution (at the century's start).
 
Feb 24, 2005 at 4:27 AM
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Sorry about all of the dubble posting,and sorry that I cant post the link were I gotten this from,but at least I posted it on the forum.
Also heres a link called"Yurovsky's Account of the Murders"
it has some photos and stuff http://victorian.fortunecity.com/rembrandt/571/yurovsky.html

From my accounts Anastasia and Prince Alexei survived,and taken out of the country,Well I do hope this helps out.
Also heres a good web page on what the family had looked like
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/scrapbook.html
 
Feb 25, 2005 at 7:57 PM
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Awesome 0_0 Thank you for all that information. I don't know why you can't post either *blink* I thought everyone could. I certainly dont mind you posting at all, so please feel free to come back. We'll try to fix it so you can post ...
 
Feb 26, 2005 at 12:11 AM
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darkannex said:
Awesome 0_0 Thank you for all that information. I don't know why you can't post either *blink* I thought everyone could. I certainly dont mind you posting at all, so please feel free to come back. We'll try to fix it so you can post ...
Thanks,some one already told me on how to fixx the posting problem,I am glad to help.

Those Russian people are very sick for what they have done to Romanov's .
 
Feb 26, 2005 at 12:49 AM
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Happily, I was able to get all my Romanov books up now that I moved. I will have to review them again for anything else, as well as look up data from more recent services.

Thank you again for your help!
 
Feb 28, 2005 at 2:02 AM
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I'm not making an assessment or evaluation of your perspective since it's your pov.

I have read elsewhere that the Romanovs, historically, politically, and economically, got what they deserved. Harsh, I know.

To look at the events in a different light, there's W. Bruce Lincoln's In War's Dark Shadow. I picked it up for information on WW1 and the Russian involvment and eventual loss in that war. I learned a whole lot more. More than I want to discuss at ANY forum, as the political and terrorist groups that washed in and around Russia at that time were exponential to the troubles of the times.

I do recommend reading it though, for those with the time. The author also wrote a book called "The Romanov's" and is a Presidential Research professor at Northern Illinois Univ. He seems to have good creditials.

Ok. Now I go check your links :)
 
Feb 28, 2005 at 4:58 AM
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MikoNoNyte said:
I'm not making an assessment or evaluation of your perspective since it's your pov.

I have read elsewhere that the Romanovs, historically, politically, and economically, got what they deserved. Harsh, I know.

To look at the events in a different light, there's W. Bruce Lincoln's In War's Dark Shadow. I picked it up for information on WW1 and the Russian involvment and eventual loss in that war. I learned a whole lot more. More than I want to discuss at ANY forum, as the political and terrorist groups that washed in and around Russia at that time were exponential to the troubles of the times.

I do recommend reading it though, for those with the time. The author also wrote a book called "The Romanov's" and is a Presidential Research professor at Northern Illinois Univ. He seems to have good creditials.

Ok. Now I go check your links :)
I guess that you are saying as well the wife and the "KIDs" got what they deserved.

What I read and saw on tv that the Russian army was weak in the 1st place,also it wasnt the Tsar to blame,if you want to blame some one or something blame the people and the generals who comanned the army.
 
Feb 28, 2005 at 9:17 AM
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The army, the military in general, was weak because of supply and demand. As with Ireland and the potato famine, the English forced the exportation of foodstuffs from Ireland inspite of the starvation it was causing. So too there were large national and international interests that wanted the wheat even tho the people growing it were starving to death. One of the many items not mentioned, I'm sure, in the TV show or the book.

You sound like you're taking it personal. Please don't.

My point was that there were many many mitigating circumstances to the downfall of the Tsar. He was a bad ruler in so many ways, as were his ancestors. The old adage of Absolute Power corrupting absolutely would apply here. And a handful of Romanovs dying hardly makes up for the millions who died as a result of poor management.

I don't condone what was done. It was done. It's history. I was offering up an opposing and obviously less likable view point.
 
Mar 2, 2005 at 3:21 AM
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It's very true that the Romanov dynasty has many opposing viewpoints. Generally speaking, I feel that if the Tsar had been deposed and shipped off to England, that the Romanovs would be less sympathetically viewed on.

The Tsar made many, many mistakes. From all accounts I have read, those mistakes were out of naivete and lack of true administrative interest. Nicholas II never wanted to be the Tsar, by all accounts. And like anyone who doesn't want a job, they tend to not excel at it. Divine calling or no, Nicholas II was not an interested and engaging Tsar. Through himself and his advisors, and through the state of Russia itself.
 
Mar 2, 2005 at 3:31 AM
MikoNoNyte
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Yes; he was a personable individual from what I've read; even if he DID believe that God would take care of things, since he was divinely ordained as Tsar. *sigh* His grandfather and father were real bastards and from what I gather, Nicholas is held responsible for the actions of Black Sunday.

I think so much is still being discovered from that period of time. So much was lied about and hidden and later destroyed by the regime that game to power afterwards. We know that one of the soldiers in charge of the Romanov's lied about how they died and the disposition of the bodies, but be damned if we can find evidence. Maybe as time goes by we'll be closer to the truth.

I'd also like to know, and it's odd I know, if any of the children or grandchildren of Rasputin survived. He had a wife and family back in Siberia. Other data lost in the shuffle of history I guess.
 
Mar 3, 2005 at 3:05 AM
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Well, I have to find the information again, but forensically speaking, I believe they managed to match up several of bodies found to that of Nicholas II and his family. He was a personable individual, just not a personable Tsar. And I think the fact that not only did bloody sunday happen, but that the Tsar went to a ball right after...did much damage to his image. Even if by accounts he wanted to cancel the ball and had been talked out of it.
 
Mar 5, 2005 at 4:58 AM
MikoNoNyte
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Yes I recall that. The bodies missing were, of course, Alexie and Anastasia's if I remember right. There was some speculation at the time whether the Bolshevik officer or his men removed Anastasia (wounded) and took her elsewhere. I don't see as how Alexie could have survived. No way. But whether they'll ever find his bones, small child that he was,... If they did in fact burn the bodies, his bones couldn't have survived.

Oh well. Back to searching for lost secrets etc. ^^
 
Mar 6, 2005 at 6:35 AM
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I think they might have. You'd have to have a pretty hot fire to totally destroy his bones, I think. But I also read something interesting about Rasputin and a theory of how he "healed" alexei. I read that he was not a fan of modern medicine, and that when he was there, they would not give Alexei aspirin. Of course, aspirin would prevent his blood from clotting even more. So...there's a "reason"

Or at least an interesting hypothosis.
 
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