Critique of Cave Story

Ok, first I want to open by saying that even though I'm going to be very critical of certain elements of the game I found it was overall enjoyable.


Guide Dang It:
I will start by saying that the game shouldn't require me to use a gameplay guide in order to get the 'good' ending. In the game there are a couple points on which you are given no information on how choosing an option will influence the rest of the game unless you're following a guide. For example when you have the option to change in your Pistol for the Machine gun, there is no indication that there's other options and if you choose it you're kept from getting one of the best weapons in the game. This really shouldn't be happening without at least some indication that there's other upgrades. How hard would it be to put in some sort of warning along the lines of "Note: Taking this upgrade will prevent you from getting other pistol upgrades later in the game". This also isn't the only case of this occuring, this occurs to a rather annoying frequency. When you first see Booster in the Labyrinth there is no real indication that taking the pack then will prevent it's use in the future. As far as you know the game might be pulling a fast one and might be hiding a powerup from you if you don't get it then and there. He's wounded and near dead, so for all you know at the time he would die and take whatever he had on him with him. So effectively you're screwed over for exploring and being curious which isn't a good thing in a game based partily around exploring for power-ups. It doesn't help that this also radically changes how the story plays out also without warning making it all the more frustrating. It also for some bizarre reason causes a power-up for rescuing your partner to not appear for no reason. Because of this you miss out on the 'good' ending simply because you talked to an NPC without any prior warning unless you were using a strategy guide. It gets worse when dealing with Curly. Even if you followed all of the other steps, if you don't go into that room, sleep in the bed, read the computer monitor, read the bookshelf, read the computer monitor again, talk to Curly, then talk to her again and choose to take her with you, she will die. This is not good design at all unless it was intended to frustrate the player or otherwise make them rely on a guide which isn't something to be proud of.




Call a human a 'Robot':
This was a rather annoying bit of the game. You're called a robot despite having no features that actually define a robot. You're basically a pale human that went into a Coma for about ten years in a cave and developed plot convenient amnesia, that's what I saw myself as anyway. When told I was a robot in game I just facepalmed at how absurd it was. The Under water meter for example works like an oxygen meter despite you being a 'robot' the game attempts to justify this by saying you're not water proof which doesn't exactly make sense with how the 'breathe' meter handles in game. Other issues with this include the fact that you're pretty obviously dressed like a human, sleep like a human, having human emotions, lack obvious robotic qualities, etc. and most importantly NOT ACTING LIKE THE REST OF THE ROBOTS IN THE GAME. This was a VERY immersion breaking part of the game. It uses 'Robot' even though it doesn't really apply in any sense of the word. It doesn't attempt to justify it by saying 'Android' or other 'Near-human' or otherwise highly human-like robot. Just 'Robot' but you and your partner are totally different from all the other robots in the game, even those that were sent with you at the unseen prologue. Your health expansions are refered to 'Life Containers' with a heart in it. It's not an 'Energy Container' or an 'Armor Upgrade' or anything of the sort, it's straight up ported from Zelda but with a slightly different name and sprite. The 'Energy' Power-ups are ambiguous and go to the weapons and not the character. Health pickups are hearts because robots clearly have organs. Heck, at several points in the game the 'robots' get healed with medicine which is absurd. In effect I played the game having an orange but everyone tells me it's an apple. I peel off the skin and show them the orange and they still refer to it as an apple. I show them an apple and an orange side by side, and they still call it an apple. It totally blew the immersion of the game out of the water for me and it never returned. Quite simply, if you're trying to sell them off as a robot then make sure they act like a robot, don't just have people refer to you or someone else as a robot.




Anti-Frustration Features:
Or the lack of them. Quite frankly the game is terrible in this respect. The game only has 3 save slots on a computer despite there being no real reason not to other than to give it more of a retro feel along with all the flaws it has. You also can only save in the same slot and not a different one so if you made a mistake like in my 'Guide Dang It' section then good luck starting the game over! There's also many segments where you're given a save point but not health or ammo, so if you get by with just the skin of your teeth and have no missiles and nearly no health it's quite easy to get into a cycle of dying over and over. You might say "Well just grind mods until you have the power-ups you need!" and I will respond by saying that's a cynical attempt to pad out the gameplay by adding a totally unnecessary grinding mechanic because the game wanted to appear difficult and retro. There's also other annoyances like that you're not given a frustration reducing check-point before each boss. While I know that it adds to the difficulty it's very frustrating to have to replay a section of the game over and over because you screwed up several minutes down the line. It's called flow and this breaks it rather notably if you're in the habit of dying a lot. Which you will if you're playing on hard difficulty! So better get used to taking it from the top. There's also this one delightful area before the 'Final' boss in which there's a save room but no health, the health is instead thrown to the top of the map in which you must scale every single bloody time you die to the final boss in order to heal up. WHY? Why was this included instead of a refill site? They both give the same effect only one is faster and more convenient and the other is missable and a bloody time sink. Which leads me to...





The 'Final' Boss Rush:
Ok, this part was very frustrating in which you're expected to fight 3 bosses (and two minibosses) in a row! What the hell?! No health or anything between each fight? Now obviously this must not apply to 'Easy' right? Wrong. Even on 'Easy' Mode you're still expected to fight all of them without getting additional health or 'ammo'. This is rather absurd and frustrating thing to ask of the player. 2 bosses, then one big boss with two boss strength mooks to deal with. No health, no ammo, no nothing. Now you might go "But wait you can talk to Chaco for health!" and we go back to 'Guide Dang It!' How exactly am I supposed to know that I can heal then and there? Further more, why should it be hidden as is frustrating the player or trying to make it look more challenging than it is somehow a point in it's favor? Just No.




Controls:
I gotta ask, but why can't the mouse have actions bound to it? It makes it very clunky to play on the keyboard where often I would get killed or otherwise put in a bad situation simply because there wasn't a good map of how to control your character. Being able to aim with the mouse and fire with M1 would have removed a good deal of frustration that came from the combat. Bonus points if the scroll wheel changed weapons and the right mouse could be bound to whatever you wanted. Those few features would have made the combat feel less clunky and flow better than it does on just the keyboard. But no this option wasn't available which is frustrating. Now, when I ask for mouse compatibility I don't mean the ability to aim in every direction, but instead aim at the closest of the 4 directions and fire at that angle. It doesn't help that the base bindings get me pressing weapon switch when I want to move or pressing the totally wrong key for jumping. I know those are rebindable but really, understand the kinds of games people probably play and note the general muscle memory pattern.

To quote the angry video game nerd:
"What bothers me about this game is just one simple problem: They swapped the buttons! B is Jump and A throws shells! How did they fuck up the controls for a Mario game?! Why change what we grew up with? Why change what's been firmly planted in our brains since childhood?!"
~on Mario Clash



So please, when you make the sequel or a similar game to it please don't repeat these mistakes over again.

 

Although I don't have time right now to read your entire critique, I did manage to get through the first segment. I will probably edit this post later, including my sentiments on the whole post.

I hold the strong opinion that the game did not tell you certain factors (such as the existence of the Snake or the Spur) not only to add replay value, but add to the affect that in a real life scenario one would not be informed of their existence from Quote's perspective. I only really noticed this after my first playthrough, but the game never takes breaks from the main plot. The controls are not explained, and things like the death trap warning in Santa's House were not mandatory breaks away from the game's immersion, but rather a sign written by Santa himself. That's all I have for right now, but I'll edit this post later.

 

Yes, you're very likely to miss out on the best weapons and the best ending on your first playthrough unless you know what's coming. I don't see that as a flaw, however, especially since the game almost explicitly tells you at later points in the game that you should have held out. Like with the Hermit Gunsmith, for example. If you go up to him having already traded the Polar Star, he tells you that the gun was incomplete. With the Booster, there's a note in the house before the final four boss fights from Professor Booster, saying that if he can stay alive, he'll be able to complete the Booster 2.0. In a game that encourages multiple playthroughs, I think this is a perfectly legitimate way to inform the player about things they could do differently next time. The only really difficult one to figure out on your own is how to save Curly because that is an involved, specific sequence.

Also, it's worth mentioning that a first-time player probably should take the Machine Gun and the Booster 0.8, as they make things a lot easier for the bulk of the game, especially the platforming.

 

3 save slots? PC original had 1. Retro!

As for controls, Japanese PC devs tend to have kooky ways of doing things which seem illogical to people in west, especially those weaned on console ports and such. Just a cultural thing.

 

Well for one, I hope you are aware that this is an unofficial forum and Pixel is never going to read that

For two, I would also like to point out that mouse controls blow hard chunks, especially when you don't actually have a mouse to use, so making them necessary in a game that would have no benefit whatsoever from it would have been an incredibly foolish idea.
For three, it kind of sounds like you want a game where you pres butan to advance plot without any consequences or risk whatsoever, and that sounds lame. Cave story's challenge is part of its charm, harkening back to a time when games weren't made exclusively for autistic quadriplegics. And the game is still really easy for the most part, the save points are well placed and the enemies and environments are well suited to the equipment and health you should have as you reach them. I am offended by your accusation that Pixel would do something just to "pad gameplay", there is not a single element in this game that was not given tender loving consideration with the intent of creating a balanced, enjoyable experience for the user, keeping in mind that Pixel's target audience was older players who grew up with the NES and could be expected to be at least marginally competent. The game is a rare mix of dedication, passion and nostalgia that come together in such a beautiful way that it moves me deeply even today. The game has secrets because secrets kick ass, and finding and sharing them is part of the experience. "Hey did you know you can reflect ganon's attacks back with the bug net instead of the sword?" "Wow no way I have got to try that!" "hey if you stand on this one block in that one level of SMW3 then you can go behind the level and get a secret flute" "Holy shit no way that is sweet thanks for telling me bro". How are you supposed to figure those out? Games get overengineered to the point that they practically play themselves, and your experience of it is going to be the exact same as everybody else's because there is nothing for you to figure out and nothing for you to do. Nothing can hurt you, or it autosaves every 2.5 seconds so it's impossible to lose progress; there is nothing at stake. At this point it stops being a game, and becomes an interactive movie (see: MGS4)

And for the robot thing, well now you're just being petty.

tl;dr don't disrespect Pixel i will fighgt yu

 

Ok, first I want to open by saying that even though I'm going to be very critical of certain elements of the game I found it was overall enjoyable.


Guide Dang It:

This point is your most legitimate one, so I'm not surprised you start with it first. But really there isn't a reason that you shouldn't not have to work to get the good ending, which is what increases the replay value. But it is a bit unfortunate that you pretty much do need a guide to get it.

Call a human a 'Robot':

This is a stylistic choice. Many works like to have robots that can pretty much emulate humans, and it's been one of the goals of robotics for a long time. I'm sorry you feel he should've been more of a robot, but it doesn't intrinsically make the game bad.

Anti-Frustration Features:

The part about the saves and not being able to save over another one is a legitimate complaint I believe, since otherwise what's really the point of having multiple saves? But otherwise you're just complaining about the difficulty of the game, and if you find the game too difficult I guess you should be playing something else (like Hello Kitty's Happy Party Pals)

The 'Final' Boss Rush:

It's supposed to be challenging, it's the end of the game. Also about the Chaco thing, you don't need to talk to her to get back health anyways given how easy the boss fights are (especially on easy).

Controls:

You can remap all the keys so I don't see why you are complaining about the "base" keys at all. Also the game wasn't designed to work with mouse controls since a) mouse controls are stupid b) it's supposed to have a retro feel and c) it would make the game too easy if you could shoot in all directions given how it is designed.

So please, when you make the sequel or a similar game to it please don't repeat these mistakes over again.

Given how the game has received practically unanimous praise on all aspects, I doubt most of your concerns will be given too much thought.

 

:/

Point 1: Not everything will be handed out to you on a silver platter. No guide was ever really needed to play any video game. If you can learn all of the gameplay, and adapt to it like any other normal, civilized, human being, then a guide is absolutely redundant in any case.
As for the curiosity part, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You are basically saying that curiosity screws over the gameplay all of the Zeldas and Metroidvanias, as in it punishes you because of your own curiosity. I do not really have to go into detail about how overly retarded that is.
As for Curly, there is possibly no excuse to have her die if you bring her with you. There is only one save point in the Waterway, and that is inside the cabin. If you miss the cabin, the game downright tells you that she has lost all of her vital signs, and it is still possible to retry if you reload the save. Also, if you did the little requirement of exploration in the waterway cabin (which I doubt that you did), then there is no excuse for that also, is there?

Point 2: If you were paying attention to the story, then you would probably remember that Quote and Curly are different from the rest of the robots, rather than wasting your time on a paragraph of you bitching.

Point 3: It's called replayability, as the two kind gentlemen above me already explained, so there's no need to go over that again.
If you think that grinding is required to beat Cave Story, then you are wrong. It is just a mistake that you made, and can easily be improved upon. Many people have completed the minimum items run, and not every boss (or even the average enemy) requires you to spam missiles every time you encounter them

Point 4: The game has a difficulty curve, which in fact is a pretty swell one. With all of the challenges and trials you have faced preceding the final bosses, it is severely justifiable why the final bosses were put in such a way.

Point 5: By the looks of it, you are playing CS+. Why are you bitching this to us? All except that version of Cave Story has its controls set in stone. If you find the controls clunky, then you have every right to change it, rather than bitching this to us. I do have a tender spot for the original controls though; not only the bindings were fair (your own mistakes are always your fault), but they kind of remind me of the old DOS games like Duke Nukem.
Mouse controls seem like the most absurd and broken way to play Cave Story. This is a retro platformer, keep in mind. Not a "Point cursor, press buton, win bitches" game. Adding mouse controls to the game could easily get rid of the retro experience portrayed throughout the game.

tl;dr: Stop being a whiny bitch. You seem to like a "point press win bitches" game like those shitty Call of Duty and Angry Birds franchise that you little kids call games that require little thought and skill to play rather than something that was thought out thoroughly and actually requires skill.

 

The 3 fine lads above me pretty much summed up everything perfectly.

And I still can't even begin to fathom why you think that mouse controls would be a better idea. That just...doesn't make any sense, and takes away from the intended feel of the game. Personally, I think that'd feel more cumbersome and inconvenient than having keyboard controls. I have no idea why you think they are "screwed up" enough to quote AVGN, either. It's not like Pixel decided to use the up key for jumping.

You should really play more indie games,

 

Looks like I came late to the party. I guess I'll just say one thing here:

I am offended by your accusation that Pixel would do something just to "pad gameplay", there is not a single element in this game that was not given tender loving consideration with the intent of creating a balanced, enjoyable experience for the user, keeping in mind that Pixel's target audience was older players who grew up with the NES and could be expected to be at least marginally competent.

Five goddamn puppies, Noxid.

As for you, OP:
[X] Told
[X] Told hard
[X] Told hardest
[X] A Whole New Told
[X[ Told Lang Syne
[X] Shut the fuck up and get out

 

I may have blocked out that particular segment from my recollection of the game.
I'm pretty sure he was going for some kind of paced plot-delivery but yeah that is maybe something that could have been handled better. The OP never mentioned it though :V

 

Yes, you're very likely to miss out on the best weapons and the best ending on your first playthrough unless you know what's coming. I don't see that as a flaw, however, especially since the game almost explicitly tells you at later points in the game that you should have held out. Like with the Hermit Gunsmith, for example. If you go up to him having already traded the Polar Star, he tells you that the gun was incomplete. With the Booster, there's a note in the house before the final four boss fights from Professor Booster, saying that if he can stay alive, he'll be able to complete the Booster 2.0. In a game that encourages multiple playthroughs, I think this is a perfectly legitimate way to inform the player about things they could do differently next time. The only really difficult one to figure out on your own is how to save Curly because that is an involved, specific sequence.
Also, it's worth mentioning that a first-time player probably should take the Machine Gun and the Booster 0.8, as they make things a lot easier for the bulk of the game, especially the platforming.

You're told this after the fact, which most of the time you won't even do it until you read the gameplay guide. Did you get the 'best' ending without having to read about it beforehand or otherwise use a guide or some assistance to actually get it? If so then it's quite simply sloppy design. Personally the backtracking mechanic doesn't really work too well as you're not hinted in any manner. It's not like Metroid where you find doors that you cannot open or key objects that you cannot interact with yet clearly will be able to. All of it requires either dumb luck, being chatty except in one specific case, or reading a guide. More often than not people read the guide so that's not a strong point at all. Why not try adding an area above the gun merchant which requires the booster to get up to so if you remember that you'll go back and end up seeing he's awake and he tells you this.

Point 1: Not everything will be handed out to you on a silver platter. No guide was ever really needed to play any video game. If you can learn all of the gameplay, and adapt to it like any other normal, civilized, human being, then a guide is absolutely redundant in any case.
As for the curiosity part, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You are basically saying that curiosity screws over the gameplay all of the Zeldas and Metroidvanias, as in it punishes you because of your own curiosity. I do not really have to go into detail about how overly retarded that is.
As for Curly, there is possibly no excuse to have her die if you bring her with you. There is only one save point in the Waterway, and that is inside the cabin. If you miss the cabin, the game downright tells you that she has lost all of her vital signs, and it is still possible to retry if you reload the save. Also, if you did the little requirement of exploration in the waterway cabin (which I doubt that you did), then there is no excuse for that also, is there?

Point 2: If you were paying attention to the story, then you would probably remember that Quote and Curly are different from the rest of the robots, rather than wasting your time on a paragraph of you bitching.

Point 3: It's called replayability, as the two kind gentlemen above me already explained, so there's no need to go over that again.
If you think that grinding is required to beat Cave Story, then you are wrong. It is just a mistake that you made, and can easily be improved upon. Many people have completed the minimum items run, and not every boss (or even the average enemy) requires you to spam missiles every time you encounter them

Point 4: The game has a difficulty curve, which in fact is a pretty swell one. With all of the challenges and trials you have faced preceding the final bosses, it is severely justifiable why the final bosses were put in such a way.

Point 5: By the looks of it, you are playing CS+. Why are you bitching this to us? All except that version of Cave Story has its controls set in stone. If you find the controls clunky, then you have every right to change it, rather than bitching this to us. I do have a tender spot for the original controls though; not only the bindings were fair (your own mistakes are always your fault), but they kind of remind me of the old DOS games like Duke Nukem.
Mouse controls seem like the most absurd and broken way to play Cave Story. This is a retro platformer, keep in mind. Not a "Point cursor, press buton, win bitches" game. Adding mouse controls to the game could easily get rid of the retro experience portrayed throughout the game.

tl;dr: Stop being a whiny bitch. You seem to like a "point press win bitches" game like those shitty Call of Duty and Angry Birds franchise that you little kids call games that require little thought and skill to play rather than something that was thought out thoroughly and actually requires skill.

I never said the guide was necessary to beat the game, it is necessary to get the good ending or even be aware of the secondary ending due to lack of hinting or player forcing.


Different from other robots by being different in 3 ways: Sentient, Emotional, Sent to destroy rather than reclaim the demon crown. However that doesn't translate to me as
"Nearly human in every respect and lacking any robotic qualities of any sort."


You missed the point, there's no reason why a save point shouldn't also regenerate health and ammo. Replayability is all well and good, however it should do that without resorting to cheap tactics like not telling you the plot drastically changes over a few choices that don't even have a logical impact on the outcome in question.


There's no reason why you cannot at least regenerate health between the bosses, or at least no good reason to hide the fact you can regenerate it. No it's not a difficulty curve, it's a difficulty spike the difference being one is a logical progression and a rather linear slope and the other just goes from reasonable to unreasonable in no time at all.


What's wrong with mouse controls in a platformer? How does adding support for the mouse take away from the game. Also I will note that most retro games are played on the pad, so those with a keyboard have to deal with having weaker and clunkier controls. There's several problems in it such as being able to only press 3 buttons at once which causes your character to go unresponsive if you press too many which is possible a lot of the time. I'm not asking to be able to aim in any direction, but to be able to aim while being able to maneuver, right now there's no way to do both effectively without a pad.


Funny is I actually never played those and I play super meat boy. By the way, there is some value in games that require accuracy and reflexes compared to being able to jump and fire at the right moment like in cave story. You strike me as the sort that likes to think that because they're 'good' at a game that it makes them 'better', 'more skilled', or 'more intelligent' than others which quite simply does not follow.

This point is your most legitimate one, so I'm not surprised you start with it first. But really there isn't a reason that you shouldn't not have to work to get the good ending, which is what increases the replay value. But it is a bit unfortunate that you pretty much do need a guide to get it.

This is a stylistic choice. Many works like to have robots that can pretty much emulate humans, and it's been one of the goals of robotics for a long time. I'm sorry you feel he should've been more of a robot, but it doesn't intrinsically make the game bad.

The part about the saves and not being able to save over another one is a legitimate complaint I believe, since otherwise what's really the point of having multiple saves? But otherwise you're just complaining about the difficulty of the game, and if you find the game too difficult I guess you should be playing something else (like Hello Kitty's Happy Party Pals)

It's supposed to be challenging, it's the end of the game. Also about the Chaco thing, you don't need to talk to her to get back health anyways given how easy the boss fights are (especially on easy).

You can remap all the keys so I don't see why you are complaining about the "base" keys at all. Also the game wasn't designed to work with mouse controls since a) mouse controls are stupid b) it's supposed to have a retro feel and c) it would make the game too easy if you could shoot in all directions given how it is designed.

Given how the game has received practically unanimous praise on all aspects, I doubt most of your concerns will be given too much thought.

I'm not asking not to have to put out a lot more time to get the good ending. I just expect the game not to actively try and hide it from me. There's also the issue that up until the bonus level that the good ending is just a glorified fetch quest that goes into moon logic territory.


Stylistic, fine. Why however do they have no indicating features what so ever? The portraits don't look robotic, they don't act robotic, they act human, they have almost all human qualities and totally lack robotic ones. I can understand "Style" up until the point where you use a pill to fix a damaged robot after which I concluded that they only called you a robot because they haven't actually seen a human and therefore assoicate humans with robots. Because quite frankly it was impossible to buy "being" a robot after that. It's called willing suspension of disbelief, and this broke it.


Ah the ever condesending 'Go play an easier game'. This is the kind of game I'd enjoy a lot more if it wasn't for the poor techinical aspects in it. Your appeal to ridicule is incredibly childish and you should be ashamed.


If it's easy one should expect it to stay consistently so even if it does get harder it should be a slope and not a cliff. I realize bosses in the game are rather easy when you have proper controls but I didn't have proper controls having to deal with a keyboard with no mouse support. Also, there is something to be said about making flow more important than trying to wear the "I'm challenging, how edgy!" hat.


The problem with the base keys is that the computer is not programmed to receive that many inputs at once. Jumping, aiming down/up, pressing left or right, swapping weapon, and firing are all common things you'll do and you can only ever do 3 at once on the PC version.


I'm interested in giving critique and not pretending like the game is flawless. It's like playing dragon age origins, it's a great game but you won't go and tell me that it's perfect in every respect.

Well for one, I hope you are aware that this is an unofficial forum and Pixel is never going to read that

For two, I would also like to point out that mouse controls blow hard chunks, especially when you don't actually have a mouse to use, so making them necessary in a game that would have no benefit whatsoever from it would have been an incredibly foolish idea.

For three, it kind of sounds like you want a game where you pres butan to advance plot without any consequences or risk whatsoever, and that sounds lame. Cave story's challenge is part of its charm, harkening back to a time when games weren't made exclusively for autistic quadriplegics. And the game is still really easy for the most part, the save points are well placed and the enemies and environments are well suited to the equipment and health you should have as you reach them. I am offended by your accusation that Pixel would do something just to "pad gameplay", there is not a single element in this game that was not given tender loving consideration with the intent of creating a balanced, enjoyable experience for the user, keeping in mind that Pixel's target audience was older players who grew up with the NES and could be expected to be at least marginally competent. The game is a rare mix of dedication, passion and nostalgia that come together in such a beautiful way that it moves me deeply even today. The game has secrets because secrets kick ass, and finding and sharing them is part of the experience. "Hey did you know you can reflect ganon's attacks back with the bug net instead of the sword?" "Wow no way I have got to try that!" "hey if you stand on this one block in that one level of SMW3 then you can go behind the level and get a secret flute" "Holy shit no way that is sweet thanks for telling me bro". How are you supposed to figure those out? Games get overengineered to the point that they practically play themselves, and your experience of it is going to be the exact same as everybody else's because there is nothing for you to figure out and nothing for you to do. Nothing can hurt you, or it autosaves every 2.5 seconds so it's impossible to lose progress; there is nothing at stake. At this point it stops being a game, and becomes an interactive movie (see: MGS4)

And for the robot thing, well now you're just being petty.

tl;dr don't disrespect Pixel i will fighgt yu

Who has a computer without a mouse anyway? Only one I can think of would be a laptop. Also I'm not asking for mouse to be required but to be an option.


Uh no, I'm afraid you have the wrong address. You already blow off your own foot by making an appeal to redicule as if that will some how magically make your faulty logic more valid.


You mean when game design was actually intended to be a game and not intended to make you pay out more quarters at the arcade machine? I wonder why that is! I don't mind a hard game so long as it's fair. Fake difficulty turns me off completely when I play a game and that's a lot of what the game feels like at times.


You honestly believe that the game is perfect and that Pixel couldn't have possibly made an error in judgement or a simple oversight? You act like games haven't changed for a good reason, they have. Design has gotten better. Most of the NES "Nostalgia" games are hard mostly because they were direct imports from arcade machines which as I mentioned were built specifically to milk you out of quarters. They weren't designed to be fair in the least.


The secret you mentioned doesn't compare to what I was talking about. It is more analogous to "Hey did you know you can reflect ganon's attacks back with the bug net instead of the sword? If you do it you enrage Ganon and go into a super final stage where the difficulty is even more difficult and absurd. If you beat the level and him afterwards you get a super special ending where you obtain the triforce of power from him!" "WAT?! Why did they hide an entire zone from me?!".


The game isn't already overengineered? I mean who got the good ending on their first run? That sounds pretty bleeding engineered to me. There's no subtle hints that more cautious players could see unless they have OCD to explore everything 2-3 times at oddly specific points in the game.


Why should a game make you lose progress? Because it's difficult? If super meat boy had a lives system like mario I'd enjoy it a lot less because going back to the start of the world after dying 5 times would be frustrating. It's called flow something that developers should find more important than difficulty. MGS4 was mostly cutscenes, which goes against your point entirely. I'm not asking for that and I'm wondering what gave you that impression besides you being an elitist "Cavestory buff."


I know! Expecting a game to be consistent and logical, how petty!


Now you're just being silly.

As for you, OP:
[X] Told
[X] Told hard
[X] Told hardest
[X] A Whole New Told
[X[ Told Lang Syne
[X] Shut the fuck up and get out

Congrats, you cannot think for yourself. What an achievement this must be for you good sir!

 

Congrats, you cannot think for yourself. What an achievement this must be for you good sir!

At least I know a single damn thing about game design.

 

I'm not asking not to have to put out a lot more time to get the good ending. I just expect the game not to actively try and hide it from me. There's also the issue that up until the bonus level that the good ending is just a glorified fetch quest that goes into moon logic territory.

I don't get what you're talking about here. Of course the game is going to hide it from you, that's what makes the good ending a secret. You're not supposed to be able to find it unless you look meticulously through the whole game. There are hints of it throughout (like ma pignon, who seems to do nothing, and the red mark in the labrynth that booster falls down in, and the tow rope in the core is easy enough to find if you just take a moment to look around).

Stylistic, fine. Why however do they have no indicating features what so ever? The portraits don't look robotic, they don't act robotic, they act human, they have almost all human qualities and totally lack robotic ones. I can understand "Style" up until the point where you use a pill to fix a damaged robot after which I concluded that they only called you a robot because they haven't actually seen a human and therefore assoicate humans with robots. Because quite frankly it was impossible to buy "being" a robot after that. It's called willing suspension of disbelief, and this broke it.

That's still a stylistic choice. The most noticable robotic features of them are their pale white skin and their earphone things (they don't seem to have ears). They resemble the other robots you see on the island too with the 2 radio antennas from their head. I guess I don't really care if it broke your suspension of disbelief, since it doesn't seem like an important issue at all.

Ah the ever condesending 'Go play an easier game'. This is the kind of game I'd enjoy a lot more if it wasn't for the poor techinical aspects in it. Your appeal to ridicule is incredibly childish and you should be ashamed.

Well when you complain about a game with solid game mechanics because of the difficulty then yes, I will tell you to play an easier game because that is obviously what you want.

If it's easy one should expect it to stay consistently so even if it does get harder it should be a slope and not a cliff. I realize bosses in the game are rather easy when you have proper controls but I didn't have proper controls having to deal with a keyboard with no mouse support. Also, there is something to be said about making flow more important than trying to wear the "I'm challenging, how edgy!" hat.

It's called a difficulty curve. The game gets harder at the end to make you work for the ending. Also why are you still going on about mouse support? This game clearly doesn't need a mouse.

The problem with the base keys is that the computer is not programmed to receive that many inputs at once. Jumping, aiming down/up, pressing left or right, swapping weapon, and firing are all common things you'll do and you can only ever do 3 at once on the PC version.

It actually depends on the keyboard/computer, the 3 keys thing is a more common issue with laptops. Even with only 3 keys it's still easy since you should only ever need 3 at once really.

I'm interested in giving critique and not pretending like the game is flawless. It's like playing dragon age origins, it's a great game but you won't go and tell me that it's perfect in every respect.

We're interested in critiquing your critique, and not pretending like it's flawless. Cave Story has some flaws, yes, but you're just getting worked up over little details.

If you don't like the game then don't play it is all I have left to say.

 

mouse support? how would that even work?

i want diagrams.

 

Metroid didn't have mouse support. It seemed to do alright before it got an analogue stick.

I'd rebute your tirade against retro game design more fully, but you don't seem to be in the mood to agree with anyone.

 

You can't compare Cave Story to Super Meat Boy in that way. Every hazard in SMB is a one-hit kill. That's a game about pinpoint precision and fast paced platforming, contained within relatively short levels. Given the frequency a good player in Super Meat Boy is likely to die, it wouldn't make any sense to have lives and spread-out save points. Cave Story is about exploration and endurance. If the game immediately re-spawned you wherever you died, that would take away the primary challenge of the game, outside of the bosses.

To answer your question directed at me, no, I didn't get the good ending on my first playthrough. I traded the Polar Star for the Machine Gun, got the Booster 0.8, and let Curly die, three things that I would guess most first-timers do. And that was my point, that the game funnels the unknowing in a certain direction, a direction that makes the game more accessible for first-timers, but then hints at other possibilities. And then you're supposed to play the game again with those things in mind. Sure, you might not talk the Hermit Gunsmith again, making you miss out on that hint, or you might not read Booster's note, but the game rewards the player for being thorough. If the secret final level was easy to find, then it wouldn't be much of a secret.

One more thing about the Machine Gun -- the fact that trading for the Machine Gun is an option should be a pretty big clue that there could be another option down the road. That's pretty basic video game logic, I think.

 

I'm gonna have to throw in my two cents and say a few things.

Fake difficulty: Unless you're playing Hard Mode in Cave Story+ or you're not picking up Life Capsules on purpose, the game has none. I chose to use Hard Mode the first time I played, and yes, I felt there were times where the repetition asked is simply uncalled for. However, I always remember that the game wasn't designed to be OHKO and it was my choice to do so. Even if an unsuspecting player chooses Hard Mode, once they reach the first or second areas, they'll realize they should go back to one of the lighter modes unless they're particularly stubborn like me.

Pretty much all the gripes I have with the game design at 3HP are completely gone if I had 10HP and a Missile Launcher. And I think you get 50 over the course of the game?

Of course, Hard Mode should add a save point in three or four specific locations because there is fake difficulty when you get killed in one hit and required to repeat something several dozen times over just to get back to where you were.


Mouse Support: No? When has Mario, Metroid, Mega Man, Sonic, etc. EVER needed a mouse? What would be the point of that? It's like adding something to a old-school, side-scrolling platformer that just doesn't need to be there.

And about the inability to do multiple things while firing on a keyboard and the necessity of a pad...It's not necessary. I know my keyboard does lock up if I press Z, an arrow key and X at the same time, so I did an upward shift to A and S and what do you know, problem resolved. If you're saying it's difficult to play on a keyboard...Let me tell you, I used a lot of emulators back in the day after my GBA broke. Mega Man Zero has trained me well to charge the saber, dash, jump and fire the buster all at the same time. It's not impossible (though it does take getting used to), and now I end up preferring the keyboard over a pad or controller.


Robot Thing: I don't really know what to say about this one...I played a ton of Mega Man (obvious, given how many times I mentioned him), from nearly every one of his incarnations. In all of those games, he's portrayed as a sentient, emotional hunk of machinery who can occassionally be conflicted with difficult decisions. There was no "Beep boop, prime directive is blow crap up" because he's just so much harder to relate as a character if he were like that. Quote doesn't say a word in the entire game, but he does have a heart, and that's what lets more people connect with him than it would if he were just a machine sent to fulfill some mission given.

Shouting "It's not realistic, there's no indication they are machines!" ...Really, it's supposed to be a bit of a shock when you find out in-game. It changes your perception, but I didn't find it detracted from the suspension of disbelief at all. It's not even a first that a form of entertainment media has a human-like machine (Astro Boy, Androids in DBZ, etc.).

 

Quite frankly the game is terrible in this respect.

Quite frankly the game is terrible

The game is terrible

 

You just know that someone's pissed when someone uses bold text Oh so scary!

I never said the guide was necessary to beat the game, it is necessary to get the good ending or even be aware of the secondary ending due to lack of hinting or player forcing.

I'm pretty positive that there isn't a lack of hints. Read GIR's post, because I don't think that needs to explained again.

Different from other robots by being different in 3 ways: Sentient, Emotional, Sent to destroy rather than reclaim the demon crown. However that doesn't translate to me as
"Nearly human in every respect and lacking any robotic qualities of any sort."

Might I add that this is a fantasy game that we are talking about? Not like CoD is like real life but still... Calm down about that. It's a fantasy game.

You missed the point, there's no reason why a save point shouldn't also regenerate health and ammo.

And you missed my point of not needing all of the health and rockets that you need to complete the game. Like I said before, people have completed the game with 3 hp and no rockets, and you can too.

Replayability is all well and good, however it should do that without resorting to cheap tactics like not telling you the plot drastically changes over a few choices that don't even have a logical impact on the outcome in question.

Let's go over what happens when...
You skip over Booster: Short monologue, minor character development
Save Curly:You find out your true self. Not like you can tell that Quote and Curly are different from the robots scattered throughout the island.

There's no reason why you cannot at least regenerate health between the bosses, or at least no good reason to hide the fact you can regenerate it. No it's not a difficulty curve, it's a difficulty spike the difference being one is a logical progression and a rather linear slope and the other just goes from reasonable to unreasonable in no time at all.

Even with the difficulty spike (which it never had, actually), you do know that a good game is supposed to challenge you rather than press the buton to win bitches, right?

What's wrong with mouse controls in a platformer? How does adding support for the mouse take away from the game. Also I will note that most retro games are played on the pad, so those with a keyboard have to deal with having weaker and clunkier controls. There's several problems in it such as being able to only press 3 buttons at once which causes your character to go unresponsive if you press too many which is possible a lot of the time. I'm not asking to be able to aim in any direction, but to be able to aim while being able to maneuver, right now there's no way to do both effectively without a pad.

... Everything? Would an NES game need to have a mouse to point and click at objects to make them instantly die? Hell no. That's what most modern FPSs are about. I do agree that retro games are meant to be played on a gamepad, hence why there was gamepad support in EVERY VERSION OF CAVE STORY TO DATE. Adding a mouse to all of that would just make the game feel all slimy and take away the greatness of retro platforming. Also, I play Cave Story on a gamepad on some of the console, but on a keyboard when I just do not have a gamepad for it. I have no idea why you are not able to shoot, aim, and move at the same time. Possibly because you just do not have any good reflexes at all. Honestly, a keyboard is just like a gamepad, but only with keys to me.

Funny is I actually never played those and I play super meat boy. By the way, there is some value in games that require accuracy and reflexes compared to being able to jump and fire at the right moment like in cave story.

Jumping and firing does require reflexes and accuracy. In some cases, you have to be pixel-perfect and have to fire at the right time to assure that the enemy is going to be hit. Congrats on disproving your point.

You strike me as the sort that likes to think that because they're 'good' at a game that it makes them 'better', 'more skilled', or 'more intelligent' than others which quite simply does not follow.

If a person is good at at game, of course that the person is better and more skilled at the game than others. More intelligent, not so much, but I'm leaving a special case for you, who doesn't even know what makes a good game.

Mouse Support: No? When has Mario, Metroid, Mega Man, Sonic, etc. EVER needed a mouse? What would be the point of that? It's like adding something to a old-school, side-scrolling platformer that just doesn't need to be there.

Looks like someone disproved another one of his points

 

autistic quadriplegics.

We went over this before, Noxid. That's why that thread got locked -.-(ONTOPIC) You are playing on CS+ of all versions to complain about mouse shit like that. If you hate the game, then why you search for a forum to shout about it on?