Cave Story RPG?

Jul 23, 2008 at 11:13 PM
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DoubleThink said:
I'd be happy to help out with damage calculations and stats and stuff, since
a) that's what I'm very good at
My recommendation for any game is to use exponential algorithms. This takes away the problem of how gaining a level when you're going from 3 to 4 means way more than going from 95 to 96.

(Protip: exponents don't have to be integers; if you use powers of 2 for an exp or damage table, you'll quickly see numbers that are just plain scary. :D)
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 12:02 AM
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RuneLancer said:
(Protip: exponents don't have to be integers; if you use powers of 2 for an exp or damage table, you'll quickly see numbers that are just plain scary. :D)
So use powers of 1.2?
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM
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Celtic Minstrel said:
So use powers of 1.2?
powers of 1.2 + base value
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 1:08 AM
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Between 1.01 and 1.05 is good, IMO. I can't seem to dig up any tables in my notes, but I did find some Endless Saga algorithms laying around. For instance, for damage, I do something like...

Code:
- Calculate level exponent.			(1 + (Level / 500)) ^ 3.5
- Calculate innate attack.			Str ^ 1.165
- Calculate weapon attack.			(Atk / 10) ^ 1.5
- Expose innate to level. Add to weapon.	(I ^ L) + W
- If weak vs element, expose by 1.05.
- Give or take 5%.
- If critical, add 35%.
- Apply defense

Example. Kirian is level 35 and has 105 strength. His sword, a fire elemental
sword, has an attack power of 1400. He is fighting an ice-elemental enemy
and uses a physical attack. His level exponent is 1.2671, his strength damage
is 226 (modified to 963 through his level exponent,) and his weapon damage
is 1656. This causes a total of 2619 base damage, modified to 3881 because
of the element.

A regular hit will cause between 3686 and 4075 damage. A critical hit will
cause between 4976 and 5501 damage. (This is without factoring in the
enemy's defense.)

(This is not the exact algorithm, btw. :D Also note that the HP/MP caps in ES are 25,000/2,500, not 9,999/999. Enemies have quite a bit more than that - technically up to 2,147,483,647 but nothing actually has that much. lol)

This use of exponents gives me a damage table that's much more interesting to play with. With a typical stat growth and up to date equipment, a character can do 11-12 damage at level 1, 29-32 at level 2, 52-57 at level 3... 5627-6219 at level 49, and 5973-6601 at level 50 (the highest exp level in ES.) Even at level 49, gaining a level is still as worthwhile as it was back when you were level 6: you do about 400 extra damage, which is a whopping ~15% more damage than at the previous level!

On the other hand, if you just do an extra 5-10 damage every level, you'll stop caring almost entirely by 25-30. Doing 5 more damage when you already do 150 is just... not worth grinding for levels anymore.
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 4:04 AM
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Hm... Yeah, that sounds good, exponential experience requirements should work nicely. :D
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 5:50 AM
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Yeah that kind of thing, except that I'd prefer to not have ridiculously large damage per level scaling >_> Big damage numbers =/= better game, especially since one can always just go and gain like three levels and come back doing hundreds of points more damage (hullo FF6). Before doing any of this though it would be more prudent to devise how the battle system will work, especially seeing as Cave Story is a shooter and so it will probably have some sort of timing mechanic. And IDEA: Instead of the characters themselves leveling up, weapon exp could be spent on powering up weapons as in the original CS, and perhaps lost when using them as opposed to getting hit. Though I would like to avoid needless exp grind if at all possible <_<
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 6:11 AM
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DoubleThink said:
Yeah that kind of thing, except that I'd prefer to not have ridiculously large damage per level scaling >_> Big damage numbers =/= better game, especially since one can always just go and gain like three levels and come back doing hundreds of points more damage (hullo FF6).

The problem with using too low numbers is that it just won't work with an exponential system. Suppose you have 50 levels, and you make HP go from 1 to 250. You have to spread it out across an exponential curve, so there's a limit to the amount of HP you can gain on you hit level 50 otherwise you'll go past 250. Or hit the HP cap at a very low level. And in order to make it fit, you end up completely losing the benefits of making the system exponential in the first place.

Example with the above numbers, using the formula HP = 5 + ((Lv+5) ^ 1.0125)/5.25 per level... (Yes, I have a life. I just wrote a quick script to generate the table. :D)
Code:
Level:  1     HP:  5     Gain:  5 
Level:  2     HP:  6     Gain:  1 
Level:  3     HP:  7     Gain:  1 
Level:  4     HP:  9     Gain:  1 
Level:  5     HP:  10     Gain:  1 
Level:  6     HP:  12     Gain:  1 
Level:  7     HP:  14     Gain:  2 
Level:  8     HP:  17     Gain:  2 
Level:  9     HP:  19     Gain:  2 
Level:  10     HP:  22     Gain:  2 
Level:  11     HP:  25     Gain:  2 
Level:  12     HP:  28     Gain:  3 
Level:  13     HP:  32     Gain:  3 
Level:  14     HP:  35     Gain:  3 
Level:  15     HP:  39     Gain:  3 
Level:  16     HP:  43     Gain:  3 
Level:  17     HP:  47     Gain:  4 
Level:  18     HP:  51     Gain:  4 
Level:  19     HP:  56     Gain:  4 
Level:  20     HP:  61     Gain:  4 
Level:  21     HP:  66     Gain:  4 
Level:  22     HP:  71     Gain:  5 
Level:  23     HP:  76     Gain:  5 
Level:  24     HP:  82     Gain:  5 
Level:  25     HP:  88     Gain:  5 
Level:  26     HP:  93     Gain:  5 
Level:  27     HP:  100     Gain:  6 
Level:  28     HP:  106     Gain:  6 
Level:  29     HP:  113     Gain:  6 
Level:  30     HP:  119     Gain:  6 
Level:  31     HP:  126     Gain:  6 
Level:  32     HP:  133     Gain:  7 
Level:  33     HP:  141     Gain:  7 
Level:  34     HP:  148     Gain:  7 
Level:  35     HP:  156     Gain:  7 
Level:  36     HP:  164     Gain:  7 
Level:  37     HP:  172     Gain:  8 
Level:  38     HP:  181     Gain:  8 
Level:  39     HP:  189     Gain:  8 
Level:  40     HP:  198     Gain:  8 
Level:  41     HP:  207     Gain:  8 
Level:  42     HP:  216     Gain:  9 
Level:  43     HP:  226     Gain:  9 
Level:  44     HP:  235     Gain:  9 
Level:  45     HP:  245     Gain:  9 
Level:  46     HP:  255     Gain:  10 
Level:  47     HP:  265     Gain:  10 
Level:  48     HP:  276     Gain:  10 
Level:  49     HP:  286     Gain:  10 
Level:  50     HP:  297     Gain:  10

You gain 10 HP by the end. Out of 297. A mere 3% increase. Not as worthwhile as it was back in the earlier levels when a level meant being able to take an extra hit. To keep up with your higher HP, enemies are going to start doing more damage than you gain HP per level. And because the range of HP is so small, to make gaining levels worthwhile and crucial in beating a boss means gaining quite a few levels. Ultimately, you'll just be grinding because a level doesn't make big enough a difference.

There's a balance between how large the range should be and how many levels you should have. Try to squeeze too low a range of HP into a range of levels and you end up with a mess. Too big a range and you unbalance the hell out of the game. Too few levels and you limit the player's ability to develop their character and slow down the pace of the game. Too many levels and the player just stops keeping track. And if you're supposed to finish the game at level 10 out of a max of 30, you just don't know how to balance things. ;P (Eg, many FFs...)

(By the way, ES drops the encounter rate gradually as your level increases above what an area would normally expect of you. So not only does it require exponentially more exp to gain an extra level, you also have to spend even longer finding something to fight (not that the encounter rate is very high to being with.) It's ultimately pointless to powerlevel as you put it because you won't be gaining any new levels for a while, won't have the money to buy new equipments (lowered encounter rate, remember?), nor the points to buy new skills your levels unlock.)
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 6:39 AM
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Well yeah I get all this and I appreciate your help but is there some reason I have to use exponential functions for EVERYTHING? Wouldn't, I dunno, a simple 2x multiplier or integer functions be more useful in some cases? I understand it's important for 99 levels of exp and all that (depending on how experience ends up working this might not even matter) but I don't see why HP would have to be exponential (why not just keep life capsules?) and certainly not why elemental weakness would have to be. Exponents by nature grow more quickly as they get bigger and so makes any sort of limiting difficult to control, especially at high levels. Also from what I understand even large static data tables take up a fairly small amount of space, so a few small, set values couldn't hurt, especially seeing as more formulae = more room for error.
And ADDITIONAL IDEA TO THAT LAST IDEA: Maybe weapon exp could be accumulated by defeating enemies to then be used in battle to power weapons up? Maybe powering up could take time, in order to keep it balanced, or something.
Also speaking of this Endless Saga, how's it actually coming along? >_>
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 6:48 AM
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DoubleThink said:
is there some reason I have to use exponential functions for EVERYTHING?
You tell me. I use plain old percentages for elemental damage and critical hits, among other bonuses (in the earlier example.) Keep in mind, though, that if health is exponential, so should damage be, and vice-versa. You're going to have some problems trying to match up a curve and a line.

certainly not why elemental weakness would have to be.
Read again. They aren't.

Exponents by nature grow more quickly as they get bigger and so makes any sort of limiting difficult to control, especially at high levels.
That's why you work with small exponents. Exponents under 1.05 can grow fairly slow. And exponents shouldn't be the sole basis for your algorithm either; that's where you get the rest of your control from. :D

The damage algorithm I posted, or at least the one used in ES, has been tested against the best possible case (level 99 with the best weapon for the character with the highest strength.) I keep track of the "average party" information, as every area has a hidden "recomanded level" value used for a number of "soft" anti-powerlevelling mechanisms - it's very difficult to be any much higher than that level short of spending literally days powerlevelling - and can get a very good idea of just what kind of physical damage to expect by that point.

Also speaking of this Endless Saga, how's it actually coming along? >_>
Fairly well. It's on pause at the moment while I get a few small projects out of the way though.
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 7:01 AM
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RuneLancer said:
Read again. They aren't.
RuneLancer said:
- If weak vs element, expose by 1.05.
.-.
This is what I was referring to. I think maybe we may have been referring to different things...
I'll try to not make it any more complicated than it needs to be, but like I said at this stage I'd rather wait and see how the battle system and stuff works out first, lest I begin applying numbers to things that don't exist >_>;
87613756982347859269823753.
 
Jul 24, 2008 at 11:09 PM
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DoubleThink said:
.-.
This is what I was referring to. I think maybe we may have been referring to different things...
Hrm, yes, we were. Sorry, my bad. :o The actual algorithm used is a bit different (I don't want people knowing all of the game's formulas and secrets when it comes out, that would just suck. :p) and I lost track of what was changed around and what wasn't. The actual formula for this bit uses a percentage value and is slightly affected by some magic-related stats in some cases.
 
May 6, 2010 at 1:00 PM
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IceBolt said:
I'm bumping a thread on the 19th page.
I'm bumping a thread on the 19th page.
I'm bumping a thread on the 19th page.

Breathe.

fluff8836-8directional.png


AAH I JUST BUMPED A THREAD ON THE 19TH PAGE

What in God's name is wrong with you?
 
May 6, 2010 at 3:05 PM
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Fire1052 said:
What in God's name is wrong with you?

Spambot?
Tripping balls?
Recovering lobotomy patient?
Other?
 
May 6, 2010 at 7:04 PM
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IceBolt said:
I'm bumping a thread on the 19th page.
I'm bumping a thread on the 19th page.
I'm bumping a thread on the 19th page.

Breathe.

fluff8836-8directional.png


AAH I JUST BUMPED A THREAD ON THE 19TH PAGE

I see absolutely no reason to link to my custom image on the Tribute Site fan works. Although it does provide a good example.
 
May 10, 2010 at 7:47 AM
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Hey, I've actually had plans on trying to make a Cave Story RPG myself. I even tried making a webcomic (which I never uploaded) about the plot. Like, Quote in the weapon shop of Mimiga Village: "You sell wooden guns?" Shopkeeper: "This is the first town! What did you expect? Iron?".

I was going to have a style of sprites like this:
diph.php

(Characters are custom FF1 sprites from TSR). I'd have made custom sprites in that style (Fire Emblem, I think), and had a gameplay more like the SNES FF games, but with focus on battles that looked more cool and fluent (like Chrono Trigger's system).

Also, I'd planned some more unorthodox stuff, like having the Hermit Gunsmith being the first new party member. And the whole game was aimed at being more funny that serious.

Luckily I never got started. But I think I might have Quote's battle sprite lying around somewhere. Want me to search for it?


EDIT:
Read about your trouble. Feel free to ask me for advice, I have some years of experience with Game Maker (though I've never done and RPG, my most advanced game is Gun Princess (in my sig), a game trying to be better than Cave Story). And I'm writing a book called Guide To Cave Design as well. While I focus on Metroidvanias, I know quite a lot about game design in general, and I'm rather creative. So, as said before: if you need advice, call me. I'm at the GMC as well, and my username there is Yal as well.
 
May 14, 2010 at 7:11 PM
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Ugh, I tried to reply but the site broke or something and it erased everything I typed. Anyway, to make it brief... I was basically saying that (forgive my laziness for not reading the whole thread if this's already been discussed) it would be much, much better for the story of this to take place as a sequel or prequel to Cave Story rather than just being a retelling of the main story. Of course, you want to use the characters and settings and abilities seen in the game, but I feel that not only would it be less interesting if we all already know the story and it's an RPG, but also it'd be impossible to recapture the magic of the original if it were remade in a totally different style--and the fact that I'd want to play as more characters than would be possible in the original game's storyline without being all "lol oh that guy didn't really die", "she wasn't really captured for the entire game", etc.
 
May 17, 2010 at 8:05 AM
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Who's saying that the other party members needs to be IMPORTANT characters? There's sereval side characters that could be used: Tetsuhou, Mahin, even Chtulhu could join, taking a role similiar to Kreia of KOTOR2 (this ominous person that's fuelled by secret motives).
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 1:11 AM
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Me and Dunc2403 are going to make one in 4 years...
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 4:36 AM
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See, this is a good example of the kind of necrobump everyone wishes didn't exist. If he said he was planning on making one now, and talked about his plans, that would be a perfectly acceptable necrobump.
Please don't post in old threads without substantial contribution.
 
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