Illegal Copy of Cave Story on Raspberry Pi: Need your help

Hi guys/girls,

It looks like another illegal "port" of Cave Story has popped at: http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/cavestory

I've posted on the comments there reminding them that it's illegal to steal Daisuke's art and post without permission--which is the biggest issue. The NXEngine version while close isn't perfect I don't think it's the best way for people to discover Cave Story.

You were all awesome helping with the previous issue of the flash Cave Story rip. If anyone has time, please post in the comments section there.

By the way, I'll be posting later this week in a separate thread, I have a few questions for all of you.

-ty

 

Damn, someone else noticed it in the comments.

 

Lets send the app maker a friendly notice, cause posting a comment with all caps in the comments section of the app isn't really all that professional.


Also, NXEngine should still be on the PI as long as it released with the original CS assets.

 

Damn, someone else noticed it in the comments.

Also, NXEngine should still be on the PI as long as it released with the original CS assets.

I've posted on the comments there reminding them that it's illegal to steal Daisuke's art and post without permission--which is the biggest issue.

What are words.

But yeah maybe a workaround can be found so that it doesn't have the graphics assets/have the user provide the assets. I'm pretty positive that's how a lot (if not all) of the RetroArch builds with NXEngine work.

 

Lets send the app maker a friendly notice, cause posting a comment with all caps in the comments section of the app isn't really all that professional.

Also, NXEngine should still be on the PI as long as it released with the original CS assets.

I, sadly, did send them a note when it was brought to my attention. Never heard back. Caps are to get everyone else's attention otherwise it looks just like another comment.

-ty

 

Wait, so it's illegal to port the images, but not the entire game itself?

 

Wait, so it's illegal to port the images, but not the entire game itself?

The game is given as is, and can be distributed in its original form from its original source (pixel's website). However, the assets are still the property/copyrighted by Pixel (or maybe Nicalis at this point, if Pixel signed over the rights to them), even if he doesn't explicitly state it. Rather, he would have had to have claimed the original assets were "Open source" for them to be so. At least, that's according to my understanding of copyright law.

Anyways I don't actually see the point of this port/copy, since as far as I can tell it just runs on computers and the original cave story has ports for most (all?) operating systems. So I find it an odd move on Raspberry's part to distribute this.

 

Wait, so it's illegal to port the images, but not the entire game itself?

Not just images but maps, entities, tsc, etc are all housed in external files.

 

Hi guys/girls,

It looks like another illegal "port" of Cave Story has popped at: http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/cavestory

I've posted on the comments there reminding them that it's illegal to steal Daisuke's art and post without permission--which is the biggest issue. The NXEngine version while close isn't perfect I don't think it's the best way for people to discover Cave Story.

You were all awesome helping with the previous issue of the flash Cave Story rip. If anyone has time, please post in the comments section there.

By the way, I'll be posting later this week in a separate thread, I have a few questions for all of you.

-ty

I had nothing to do with the distribution of this port, but I do feel I must defend the guy who put it up there on the Raspberry Pi store

1) .reminding them that it's illegal to steal Daisuke's art and post without permission

He is not "stealing" anything - the PC "freeware" game was released in 2004 as "freeware".

Look at Wikipedia to see yourself -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Story

All that is happening here is that the original ".exe" file is supplied with the package, and it merely "reads" the assets from runtime. That's it. That "exe" file was released as "freeware" too BTW.

The NXEngine version while close isn't perfect I don't think it's the best way for people to discover Cave Story.

Your personal preferences are entirely irrelevant. Please keep them out of this subject if you want to keep this confined to "legality issues" since they have no place here.

I don't think it's the best way for people to discover Cave Story.

You don't even have an official port of Cave Story out on the Raspberry Pi. Neither do you have any ports out on any of the other non-Nintendo platforms. So how exactly can you get these people to "discover" Cave Story when you are offering them exactly nothing on these platforms?

BTW - if the entire thing is just about making "moniez" - contact us and we will be happy to give you guys permission to use the libretro port so that you can push out your game to over 12/14 different platforms (including web-based). Just like I told that Dave guy who said he wanted to put it up on the Raspberry Pi store - I have no problem at all with this since we just made the libretro port and what other people do with it is not my problem.

It just seems to me that only having a Wii/3DS port is really backfiring here if the intent is to make 'moniez'. If the entire issue is a lack of money being garnered from Cave Story, methinks the reason you are not making any money is because you have published them on failing platforms that no longer enjoy massmarket traction. All the action is at the mobile realm, the browser and more high powered game consoles. A 3DS doesn't even count in the marketplace compared to Android/iOS.

You were all awesome helping with the previous issue of the flash Cave Story rip. If anyone has time, please post in the comments section there.

OK, so how are you going to make people feel "bad" for somebody taking the original freeware EXE file, taking a libretro core, taking RetroArch and just throwing it together in one package? There is no "stealing" at all going on here. If you have a problem with the way the original Cave Story for PC was released, use your VC money to put a stop to it (but that would look bad for you since we both know that Cave Story would have never enjoyed the success it did if it HAD NOT been released as a freeware game). Otherwise, you don't really have a leg to stand on. You can't just "decide" you no longer want a freewared game to be distributed online just because you have made a publishing agreement with the lone-wolf Japanese coder to make money from now on off 3DS/Wii sales. Worse, outside of these (niche IMO) Nintendo consoles, you don't have anything to offer to users of these other platforms - so there is not even the excuse of a "lost sale"

You can't arbitrarily decide that a "freeware game" is "no longer freeware". Once put out as freeware, this particular version will ALWAYS be freeware. It is as simple as that unless you want to do a retroactive purge.

BTW - like I suggested above - you can easily make 2 to 3 times the money you made probably so far on the Nintendo consoles by publishing on Android/iOS. There is nothing wrong with NX Engine and the version we worked on is a heavily optimised version that no longer has a lot of the performance issues that were previously there.

 

You seem to be ignoring the fact that "freeware" does not mean "free software"/"open source software".

"Many works on the Internet are available for public use. However, the author of the work must have explicitly granted it to public domain. If a work is in public domain, granted by saying "I grant this to the public domain," anybody who stumbles upon it can use, take, or copy without giving credit to the owner (Templeton 1). Although, frequently a user can contact the author of the work and be granted permission to use it (Templeton 4)."
-Some website on copyright law

Basically you do not have permission to distribute or use, copy, or distribute the original game/assets. NX Engine is public domain and can be used as such, but the original Cave Story is not in the public domain, it is simply free (no charge to download/play).

Also I like how you arbitrarily decide that Nintendo consoles are a niche market. But at least now I know why this port actually exists (it's an android port, would not have guessed that from your site/the page). Maybe Nicalis should look into porting it to android, but honestly, I feel like I've seen enough Cave Story ports from Nicalis at this point.

I don't think Nicalis will like the idea of using the NXengine as a port, for a couple of reasons. One is that they don't own the source code, and they won't like that. But the other (and personally more important) is that the NXengine is a clone, but not a perfect clone. It comes close to being Cave Story, but it's still off here and there.

 

You seem to be ignoring the fact that "freeware" does not mean "free software"/"open source software".

"Many works on the Internet are available for public use. However, the author of the work must have explicitly granted it to public domain. If a work is in public domain, granted by saying "I grant this to the public domain," anybody who stumbles upon it can use, take, or copy without giving credit to the owner (Templeton 1). Although, frequently a user can contact the author of the work and be granted permission to use it (Templeton 4)."
-Some website on copyright law

Basically you do not have permission to distribute or use, copy, or distribute the original game/assets. NX Engine is public domain and can be used as such, but the original Cave Story is not in the public domain, it is simply free (no charge to download/play).

Also I like how you arbitrarily decide that Nintendo consoles are a niche market. But at least now I know why this port actually exists (it's an android port, would not have guessed that from your site/the page). Maybe Nicalis should look into porting it to android, but honestly, I feel like I've seen enough Cave Story ports from Nicalis at this point.

I don't think Nicalis will like the idea of using the NXengine as a port, for a couple of reasons. One is that they don't own the source code, and they won't like that. But the other (and personally more important) is that the NXengine is a clone, but not a perfect clone. It comes close to being Cave Story, but it's still off here and there.

You don't have a leg to stand on.

Cave Story was entirely released as freeware back in 2004, and no wishy-washy venture capital-funded small "indie game publisher" is going to change that fact anytime soon. So shipping the original EXE (which is entirely unmodified) along with NXEngine is entirely legal for that matter.

BTW - how very "coincidental" that a "Takedown request" was just filed for RetroArch Android. Gee, I wonder who of all possible people could have done that.... You really shouldn't have done that. It will be bad publicity for you since RetroArch Android's release is entirely 100% legal.

In case this was done by Nicalis - I am totally allowed to host a Libretro core of NXEngine with RetroArch Android on the Play Store SINCE UNLKE THE RASPBERRY PI GUY - I DO NOT EVEN SHIP THE EXE OR ASSETS. I will be appealing this takedown and I am pretty sure I will get the app reinstated.

But at least now I know why this port actually exists (it's an android port, would not have guessed that from your site/the page)

No it does NOT. Libretro/RetroArch has NOTHING to do with Android.

Libretro is a platform-agnostic API that has been ported to over 12/14 different platforms. Android is just one out of those many platforms.

 

You don't have a leg to stand on.

Cave Story was entirely released as freeware back in 2004, and no wishy-washy venture capital-funded small "indie game publisher" is going to change that fact anytime soon. So shipping the original EXE (which is entirely unmodified) along with NXEngine is entirely legal for that matter.

BTW - how very "coincidental" that a "Takedown request" was just filed for RetroArch Android. Gee, I wonder who of all possible people could have done that.... You really shouldn't have done that. It will be bad publicity for you since RetroArch Android's release is entirely 100% legal.

In case this was done by Nicalis - I am totally allowed to host a Libretro core of NXEngine with RetroArch Android on the Play Store SINCE UNLKE THE RASPBERRY PI GUY - I DO NOT EVEN SHIP THE EXE OR ASSETS. I will be appealing this takedown and I am pretty sure I will get the app reinstated.

Wasn't me. I don't have the rights and I'm not affiliated with Nicalis or Pixel in any way, shape, or form.

And you fucking said it yourself, it was released as "freeware", which is not "free software"/"open source". So, according to my limited knowledge of the copyright system (I'm not a lawyer or anything), you do not have permission to distribute or use any of the game's assets.

Also I am stressing my limited knowledge on the subject because I know very well I could be wrong because copyright laws are a very complicated subject, but you just keep saying "it's freeware, we can do whatever we want with it" which is not how freeware software works, according to my knowledge. Whether or not you get the game reinstated will be the proof in the pudding.

No it does NOT. Libretro/RetroArch has NOTHING to do with Android.

Libretro is a platform-agnostic API that has been ported to over 12/14 different platforms. Android is just one out of those many platforms.

Ok then uh, what IS the point of this port then? What does this port actually port Cave Story to?

 

Wasn't me. I don't have the rights and I'm not affiliated with Nicalis or Pixel in any way, shape, or form.

I meant the OP of this thread of course. It is pretty obvious the Takedown Request he made was done out of ignorance on the facts. He could have contacted me beforehand before doing this reactionary move which does nothing but hurt his own reputation.

RetroArch Android never came with Cave Story assets which should be all music to his ears.

Also I am stressing my limited knowledge on the subject because I know very well I could be wrong because copyright laws are a very complicated subject, but you just keep saying "it's freeware, we can do whatever we want with it" which is not how freeware software works, according to my knowledge.

And you fucking said it yourself, it was released as "freeware", which is not "free software"/"open source". So, according to my limited knowledge of the copyright system (I'm not a lawyer or anything), you do not have permission to distribute or use any of the game's assets.

All the Raspberry Pi guy is doing is shipping the EXE (which is freeware). The assets are contained in the exe. NXEngine merely reads from it.

Nobody (not Nicalis, not Pixel) has a leg to stand on. It is not "illegal" - it is just one guy (Mr. Tyrone Rodriguez)'s selective interpretation of copyright law because he does not like the fact that there still remain freeware alternatives to playing this game despite what he would like. Cave Story made its bones as a freeware game - this original 2004 game will forever remain freeware.

Whether or not you get the game reinstated will be the proof in the pudding.

RetroArch Android is not a "game". Please educate yourself on what RetroArch is before doing anything else. Hell, if the Nicalis CEO had done that, he would have realized how filing a takedown request for RetroArch Android totally misses the point (since it does not even come with a Cave Story EXE or any assets - is it too much to expect these guys to check out the app itself these days before they file a takedown request?)

Neither did any "Cave Story" assets get shipped with RetroArch Android - the Raspberry Pi package did (which, BTW, I had nothing to do with).
So on top of that - Nicalis filed an invalid Takedown Request. That is just great. That really works well for your reputation when you don't even check out the stuff you want pulled.

Ok then uh, what IS the point of this port then? What does this port actually port Cave Story to?

Learn what an API is. Learn why an API matters. Learn how that ties into the RetroArch/Libretro project.

 

All the Raspberry Pi guy is doing is shipping the EXE (which is freeware). The assets are contained in the exe. NXEngine merely reads from it.

Actually most of the Cave Story data is not contained inside the executable, it's in an external data folder. The original Cave Story is actually a .zip file, and does not come with an installer.

Maybe you're refering to the Cave Story Deluxe installer? It unpacks the game and includes some other files like the soundtrack in an mp3 format. However, I'd note that the Deluxe installer is unofficial, so using it in the "freeware" argument might not be such a good idea. And even if the data were just in the executable, it still really doesn't make your point any more valid?

And Nicalis isn't doing anything to stop the release of the freeware version for PC, Mac, PSP, and Linux, so I don't see why another port of Cave Story is actually needed. That's what baffles me the most about this.

Also I'm looking forward to tomorrow when people will actually be awake to give their opinions on this issue, because it's sort of a boring conversation with just the 2 of us.

 

And Nicalis isn't doing anything to stop the release of the freeware version for PC, Mac, PSP, and Linux, so I don't see why another port of Cave Story is actually needed. That's what baffles me the most about this.

Whatever, either way he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Unlike the Raspberry Pi guy, I am not bundling any game content/assets from Cave Story with RetroArch Android - therefore, even though I defend the Raspberry Pi guy's decision to bundle it with the game content, I myself DO NOT for RetroArch Android and yet I have still been caught in the crosshairs of this entire thing just because of a reactionary CEO that does NOT check-fact his takedown request.

And it doesn't matter if you don't like NXEngine or not - NXEngine exists, deal with it. I am allowed to provide a libretro core of NXEngine with RetroArch Android - and since I don't even have any assets bundled, any objections by Nicalis/Tyrone are totally irrelevant since it does not concern him. If he did that takedown request (and I'd appreciate it if he was at least honest about it), then it's an invalid takedown request and Google will repeal it soon after they learn of the facts. If he did this, all it does is cast doubt over his decisionmaking process - that is all. Could have been easily prevented by contacting me first and asking what it was before making a stupid and rash move like this.

And BTW - since we're on the subject - why does Nicalis/Tyrone not make his own game instead of endlessly milking a 2004 freeware game by a Japanese guy forever? I think this entire legal spat is so wishy-washy exactly because there is no real legal backing to back any of this up - Nicalis created nothing, did nothing on Cave Story - only thing they did IMHO is desecrate the original art and added stupid smiles where previously there were none. Some great 'accomplishment' there.

EDIT: Just confirmed it was Tyrone Rodriguez - the guy who put it on the Raspberry Pi store (not me BTW and I had nothing to do with it) contacted me that the Raspberry Pi store app has received a takedown request as well.

Problem for Tyrone is that he barked up the wrong tree and did not understand what it is he was filing a Takedown Request for - RetroArch Android does not come with any Cave Story assets unlike the Raspberry Pi app - so all he did today was waste my time and filed a wrong and invalid Takedown request.

 

And BTW - since we're on the subject - why does Nicalis/Tyrone not make his own game instead of endlessly milking a 2004 freeware game by a Japanese guy forever? I think this entire legal spat is so wishy-washy exactly because there is no real legal backing to back any of this up - Nicalis created nothing, did nothing on Cave Story - only thing they did IMHO is desecrate the original art and added stupid smiles where previously there were none. Some great 'accomplishment' there.

A wise man once said:

Your personal preferences are entirely irrelevant. Please keep them out of this subject if you want to keep this confined to "legality issues" since they have no place here.

If you're going to yell and keep restating most of your points at least follow your own advice.

 

A wise man once said:

If you're going to yell and keep restating most of your points at least follow your own advice.

The rules changed when some scummy startup CEO decided it would be a good idea to file a fraudulent Takedown request for RetroArch Android even though I am not even shipping in ANY Cave Story game assets.

That is when the rules changed.

And I am still pissed over it because it means I have to take additional work out of my schedule to get it reinstated again - all because a certain guy whose name begins with a "T" did not want to do proper research on what it is he was pulling.

He pretty much makes the big game publisher CEOs look reasonable.

 

So because people are doing things you don't like, it's okay to be hypocritical after yelling at a (relatively) frequent member of our forum?

 

Anyway Mr. Tyrone Rodriguez, I have filed a DMCA counter-complaint form. I know I'm in the right here and I will fight this.

 

We have rules against personal attacks. Tone it down.

Though seriously, there is an existing Linux port of freeware CS and another of CS+. You guys are the very last people to ever need a CS or NXE port. Or are there hardware limitations that prevent you from doing so on a Raspberry PI?